21. Shari Foos

What I was saying is that the narrative method is all about Sondership and where have you been all my life?

Welcome to the Sondership podcast. I'm your host, Danny Attias. The Sondership podcast is all about hearing inspiring stories from people with purpose and today's person with purpose is Shari Foos. Shari is the founder of the narrative method, a nonprofit that connects diverse populations to themselves and each other through personal storytelling and other connective experiences. Her passion and mission is to help peel away participants' false assumptions and beliefs to help them refocus their perspectives and understanding through storytelling and a practice called relational mindfulness, participants are able to develop radical empathy, compassion, and an understanding for those around them. I think we're on the right podcast here. Shari is also a licensed marriage and family therapist who holds a master of arts in clinical psychology from Antioch University, Los Angeles, and a master of science in narrative medicine from Columbia University on the subject of relationships and meaningful connection. Shari's writing and commentary have appeared in a range of online and print publications, including Huffington Post, Shondaland, Women's Health and soon right now, the Sondership podcast. So Shari, welcome to the Sondership podcast.

Thank you so much. I'm really, really excited.

Shari, where are you joining us from?

I'm in Los Angeles, and it's 80 degrees not to brag. I'm

have to, I'll have to convert that into English, uh, temperatures soon for our guests. We start each of these episodes off by understanding our guests Sonder moment. So Sonder, it's that realization that every random passer-by has got a life as vivid and complex as your own. I'm sure that is something you have thought about a lot. And I'd like to ask, could you share one of your earliest or most memorable sonder moments?

Absolutely. Well, first of all, as I said, too, before we began, we are such kindred spirits. I thoroughly am moved by, your values and ideas, and it is all part of the Narrative Method. So I think when I first became aware that I wasn't, the only suffering person was in high school when, I had been very depressed, I had a rough time at home and, some teachers noticed me and suggested to my parents that I went to counseling, which I did, and I was in individual therapy and group therapy. That group therapy experience has stayed with me my whole life, because that was when I woke up to the fact that I'm always talking about today, which is, that experience of being in a group, particularly if it's strangers where you never would've met them before, you're not particularly attracted to, to them. You don't necessarily think you have anything in common, but when you see that person over there telling your story or talking about your vulnerable feelings, you have to stand back and say, wait a minute. If that's true, then it can't just be me. And that is what is at the basis of my ability to the extent that I can self-soothe through the trials and tribulations of life. It's just knowing I'm not alone, it's not just me, and in my opinion, it emanates even more than from our families of origin, the culture, the larger culture. We can talk about that later.

Definitely, and that's really interesting. So you are realizing that people have got stories the same as your own, and then you're realizing everyone's got their own thing going on and some are similar to mine, some are completely different to mine, but let's go around this room and find out more.

Exactly, and everyone could relate to each other because we were being real.

um,

And, even today, it's not always easy to get a group of people together to have real conversation, but whether or not you have to look up what 80 degrees Fahrenheit means, centigrade, we could still all look out the damn window and find out what the weather is. Let's cut to the middle and talk about what really matters.

I've just started a new job and I've made a very, I've got to be careful what I say because some of my staff might be listening, but I've made a very conscious, positive effort and intention to be honest, vulnerable, transparent, caring, sharing, throughout every single interaction. And, as you say, it's really hard in real life to have honest, open feedback, it's really hard to listen and to challenge. And so a new start is always a great way to do it or a new group of people, but really setting that intention from day one and being ruthless to maintain it and never let it slip because as soon as you lose that trust then, then it all falls apart. I'm only six weeks in, but it's working really well and I'm really enjoying it. And I'm getting people reaching out and challenging me all the time. And I love it. I love getting people going 'I don't really agree with what you've just done there'. Great. Now we can have a conversation. So that's really nice and that's in a professional environment, which is super hard to do because you're all colleagues. You're not friends, you're not in therapy with each other kind of, but maybe, maybe we are. So tell us a bit about your, your start to life, Shari, you said you had this depression at high school, was it, you got through high school, clearly you've taken two degrees since what was the rest of your childhood like, and your, your family life as well?

My father was a World War II veteran who had only gone through eighth grade because his father died and his family was poor and he had to support his family. So he had a huge chip on his shoulder, I never met his parents, but apparently his mother didn't really nurture him, there were many other children, et cetera, et cetera, whatever the reasons the result was between his home life and the war, he was extremely traumatized, and like a lot of men of that era were, where they would have rage and really no tools and no intimate male friendships, to talk about these things with, and they were certainly not going to show their less than manliness in front of women. So I, I think, what I can see now is a much bigger picture, but for me as a little girl, I knew that I was getting in trouble every day, and at four years old, I said to myself, but I know I'm not that bad. I feel like now that, that was my waking up to my soul, that I was more than what was happening. That there was a me separate from what was being projected into me. I could not have articulated it like that, but I think in the long run that became clear to me. So I'm always curious about what it is that starts someone's inner life.

I love the fact that at four years old, you're telling yourself, I know I'm not that bad, because imagine if that four year old is saying, why am I so bad?

And truth be told, complexity be expressed, there was that as well. And I think we all have those kinds of struggles, some people in specific areas, but, at least there was that part. And there've been a lot of psychological experiments showing that even infants have a sense of morality. They watch puppet shows and if there's one bad puppet and that bad puppet finally gets his come uppance, the children are very happy and they can tell this by the amount of time they look at each character. So it was really, this particular study was really based on, do children, and if so, at what age have a sense of morality?

And so what age were you when you really started to feel a bit more confident in yourself?

I think I always had a tremendous amount of confidence and lack of confidence. I think when I was a little girl, I was shy, but I don't know if that was really a big enough word. I might've been afraid because I didn't want to get, humiliated. So, there's no way for us to deconstruct our childhoods, our brains weren't developed enough to have much more than flashes and we can't really call them up. I think putting it together backwards, it's just a struggle. I've always had, you know, on one hand hearing my father saying, you're goddamn dummy and you'll never be nothing. And then my inner strength and sort of more and more as I got older seeing I have a different kind of impact on people than what I've been told about myself. And I believed it, but I was afraid.

So, what did you want to be when you grew up?

I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be a a comic actress. And in fact, I studied theater and music in college and went to Los Angeles when I was 20 years old. I mean, it was well-thought out because I had worked one day on a film as an extra, so I quit school and I didn't know one person and I came to Los Angeles. I got a job. I got an apartment and just gradually found work to do in entertainment. And the thing I did before I became a therapist, was I was writing late night television shows, but I never had an agent because I was afraid. And I don't even think during the time I could have deconstructed that. I think I would have thought, well, I, I don't know how, I don't know anybody who can set me up. I was afraid.

That's really interesting. I'm going to be very careful about making any more jokes here cause they're going to fall flat. So I got, I got a comedy writer on the show. So tell us a little bit about the narrative method. How did that come about?

Well, I had been a therapist for many years when on a whim in 2010, my husband, and 15 year old, and I, we're saying goodbye to our favorite cousins after vacation in New York. And my husband said we should move to New York. And I said yes. And my kid said, yes, my husband said, I didn't really mean it, but two months later, our house was on a truck. And so our kid got an experience of going to a different high school. And, I took all the exams and opened a practice in New York, but I really had time left. So I started looking at what kinds of programs I might take, and I saw narrative medicine at Columbia university and I instantly resonated with it. And narrative medicine is probably around 30 years old and it was conceived as a way to teach empathy to doctors, through identifying with characters that they would read in literature. And this program was so brilliant for everyone in the medical field, but also just in terms of teaching profound empathy and appreciation for the experience of others. So it's, it's a field that is influenced by many, many ideas and at its root is social justice. Who has the right to speak for a patient. If you know the story of Henrietta Lacks, whose cells, uh, cancerous cells were multiplied. I don't know how many times and companies made money off of it, whereas her, you know, heirs did not. But even just appreciating so many things that we all intuitively know, like the power of eye contact, when your doctor makes eye contact with you. When your doctor cares about you wants to know about your story. You comply better with the protocols and guess what you get better, faster. So we are hardwired for stories and the human connection that that creates whether we're telling the story or listening our brains light up and the same place. We need these connections. That's why everybody has such a hard time through the worst parts, hopefully that's in the past through the pandemic because you can't replace that with texting and

And zoom calls only go so far. I can look you in the eye, but now I can't see you.

yes.

actually there's something I read about recently about the impression and the connection that you make with someone first time you meet them and how those first few seconds are so important. And the tip and trick, that was referenced in the article was just, check out their eye colour. And that's long enough to make enough eye contact, to establish a connection on which to now base a connection and a relationship and build things on. But something as simple as just making, and sometimes I'll be talking to someone and maybe four or five minutes into the conversation I realize I haven't looked into their eyes at a single point. I've been looking at their mouth, their forehead, and how strange, and then you, you really do have to make the effort to connect. And once you're connected, then, the energy is there.

Building on something that you said earlier about your commitment to be so present with people you work with. I have noticed that I'm not always, as excellent a human being as I aspire to be. And based on that, I have come to a realization that, whereas I really want to hold myself to the highest standards, I'm, I'm going to fail. And do, all the time. So I think we also have to build into that intention and commitment to be a hundred percent that we're not going to be. And there are times when, you know, failing that can hurt someone else. So it's not that it, doesn't matter at all, but hopefully in the long run with the agreement within your relationships, that if something really needs to be, clarified, let's make that commitment. And so many times because of a problem, in that spirit of clarification and better understanding you can become closer than you ever would have been otherwise. So there is something to be learned from our imperfection.

It's acknowledging when you've failed yourself and just sharing that vulnerability and apologizing. And I've had a couple of instances where I've said I messed that up. I didn't consider your feelings when I said what I said, I now realize that impact and I'm sorry. And that in itself is incredibly strengthening, and that vulnerability, that humility and that failure makes you a more real person. And it's also, what's it say, it says it's okay to mess up,

Exactly.

But own it.

Exactly. And. There are also times when I feel like I am right, this person is wrong and I may not be able to get immediately to a place of, forgiveness or apologizing. And maybe I never will. So I sort of steer away from the absolute expectations because I know how faulty I am, but that doesn't change my dream and that doesn't change my call.

That's great. So you did this, wonderful sounding degree. Um, and then straight off the back of that you decided, okay, what am I going to do with it?

Well, I knew that I wasn't going to work in, the physical health field and because of my passion about groups and the power of groups, I thought I could sort of adapt this work, taking it away from literature, which really would involve homework and all this kind of thing to create a real time experience with people in which they got to share their stories and their feelings with other people based on an inspiring video followed up by a prompt. So it could be any subject that, effects us as human beings, which is almost anything and then put into the context of one of our 12th work concepts. So for instance, I mentioned earlier that, culture and in particular, what we call the cult of culture, the constant onslaught from everywhere from the media to social media advertising and all of these influences that even before the internet were lethal to, our heart and soul. But now obviously it's worse and worse and we can't undo it. We can unplug, but we still can't completely without losing our memory, take away some of this damage. But what we can do is have the personal awareness and share that awareness with others to say, I really feel fat or ugly or inadequate or whatever those things are, but so does everybody else and that makes it so much more tolerable so that I can really look at that and say, well, what specifically? Because if it's just me, it's like when I said earlier, when I couldn't even really face the fact that I was afraid to get an agent, that once it becomes not my personal shame, I have more stamina to look at what's going on.

That's really lovely.

My process of surviving. My personal hurdles, limitations, pain, put downs, all that stuff was something that I consider to be, move up three steps, go back 13, one to the right, 17 to the left it. I can't imagine what number would be realistic about how many times I was on the ground or couldn't get out of bed for a couple of days. And, the things that helped me cope were finding creative ways to think about something else. So when you're depressed, you're in a loop and that loop doesn't end, so you almost have to trick yourself. Yeah. For instance, one thing that that really did work for me was watching movies, because, obviously you could get into a whole new world, but then I discovered that I can create my own movie in my head and based on that, I created a way to, sort of meditate in a sense, but it was really more like lucid dreaming in which I would lay in bed with pillows under my arms and pillows under my feet. And my body would be perfectly comfortable and I'd feel like a floating head. I still do it all the time. And whether I am creating a movie that I'd like to follow a fantasy or a dream or a wish, or I'm just going to let it roll, you know, wherever it takes me, I have discovered that inside my own head I can have the greatest time while by myself. And part of the work I do on myself is within a space and feeling really relaxed so that I can see my feelings and try and speak to them from, another part of myself, that's more confident. For instance, I created this tool, which is just when you put your hand on your heart and you feel the beat of your heart, it centers you, but it works in two ways. One is that your hand taking your hand, whichever is your writing hand and putting it on your heart is taking control. So you're kind of saying to your unconscious I'm here, I don't know exactly what is required or how we'll get through this, but we'll get through it. But from the inside, you feel the comfort of the parent part of you. And so that suits you in two ways. And the thing I like about it is you can do it at any place in any time, super quickly, without having to excuse yourself. I just developed a lot of tools like that to help me.

So most of this is self-created your kind of point of realization with, through your own suffering and realization, others were sharing in similar suffering to you at a young age, in high school. And then your treatment methods, again, are things that have worked for you that you've then taken and adapted and been able to share.

Yeah, It's both ways. I mean, there are things that I've learned as well. And, what I'm describing is, it's not rocket science, but, I think the other thing that helped me so much was that for probably seven years. I was a singer and songwriter and I really had had no training, but I was able to write out chords and work with bands and so forth, but In singing, I exorcised so much pain and just got to sort of shout it out and that did two things. One was it really perfected my writing skills because even more than a poem, a song has few words and it's as much about the way you say them, as it is about, what they mean in context. So that, and writing prose in general really added to my own healing and sense of self, because if I wrote a song and I really loved it, even if nobody heard it or only a few people heard. There's some songs that still hold up for me, not all of them, but the fact that they could, any of them could still be valuable to me is a testament of, I don't want to say pride, but I'll say pride or just confidence or self-assurance that I don't know why, but it does take a long time to come together.

You're a very artistic lady Shari doing a lot of incredible creative things, you mentioned that the narrative method is a nonprofit.

Yes.

So who do you work with? Who do you support?

Well, we work with veterans. I worked at, uh, the veterans administration, done hundreds of workshops over there with veterans who've been in and out of jail, many of whom signed up in the first place, as a way to get some training or perhaps a father figure that they had never had. So a lot of these guys, these were all men in this particular program, were already one down or didn't have families who cared about them or their families had passed away or, those kinds of things, and to see how people can blame themselves for oppression that they didn't cause is is so excruciating. And being able to witness them provide for each other, another perspective about that, about their strengths, rather than focusing on the failure. How about on the survival that you still keep coming back and that you're still getting closer? Who cares how long it takes, whatever it is. I read today that an 89 year old man just got a PhD.

Oh, wow.

I don't know if he'll make more money as a result of it, but I bet that's money in his soul's bank.

Absolutely, tell me, what is it like for these men from a pretty tough experience, dealing with something so soft, Let's call it soft for now.

it has been mindblowing, because there's an approach that is saying two things at once. One is that you're really saved your, um, just your regular person, and anything goes with the understanding of mutual respect and confidentiality. I don't care what language you use, I don't care how you express yourself, but there's also so much humor in it. Organic humor, natural humor. When we can laugh at ourselves, like look at the way we put ourselves down, raise your hand if you don't put yourself down. And when we can look at our common humanity again, it's, referring back to, we were talking about it a little earlier. To realize that these flaws that you have are not your own flaws from your own defectiveness, they're human flaws. And when we can recognize them in ourselves without punishing ourselves, because we broaden the perspective and we realize that it's, far bigger than just our own personality. It leads to an exhale and a comfort level. Okay, give me more. I've had guys come in with their arms crossed or one guy said, I'm so F-ed up and I go, well, no, I don't think so. And very shortly he got more into it than anyone, many people in the world have never been invited into this kind of conversation.

Yeah.

And if you haven't been invited and it's not on the menu, how are you supposed to even know that it's possible to be open and real with people and exchange in such a way that both people literally leave their troubles behind? Don't worry, they'll find you, but you know, for a period of time, this is grace and brotherly sisterly, humanly love, you know,

I mean go back to sonder and realizing that everyone else has a story, you're bringing that into their lives by way of group therapy.

Exactly. And honestly, I don't think of it as therapy. I don't think of it so much by psychology as sociology

Hmm.

And the reason for that is because of the influence of the cult of culture. Although of course your DNA and your family dynamics and where you live and how you eat and the institutions and the government that you live under. All of those things have a giant effect, but I don't think anything affects us as powerfully and as dangerously as the cult of culture. And now it's not your community. It's not your country. It's the planet.

Can you, can you expand on that? On the cult of culture and the planet?

Well, the way we define the cult of culture is really the messages, the negative messages that never stop. So we all learned that we're not good enough, and we don't really realize necessarily at the beginning, at least that we're not the only ones who aren't good enough. Even those influencers that you look up to have learned that. They may be covering it with their ego for the moment. But what happens is that I grew up in a world where there were a few television stations in the United States and everyone for better or worse. And a lot of it was worse, and certainly not, considerate of people of color or women. But everybody got the same shows and the same news, so good or bad, there was a common denominator to respond to. Now we have no idea what other people's influences are. And so many people don't know how to tease out fact from fiction, that they may just promote things that they're really not sure about. And the impact of that is obvious, the greater spread of the disease, but also the greater spread of the diseases of hatred and fear.

I don't know if you've come across Mo Gawdat, he was chief business officer for Google X's experimental and has a very kind of tragic story, but, he's trying to bring happiness into the lives of a billion people. So a nice, nice ambitious goal. But a lot of what he talks about is these machines, this artificial intelligence, which is effectively spreading hatred because it sells more screen time. And back to your point about, people not feeling good about themselves, you can't sell people stuff if they feel good about it, you know, if they think they're perfect there's nothing to sell them. So you've got to make them feel like they could be faster or thinner. Maybe not taller that's for selling platform shoes, but he talks about, the way we engage, the way we talk to each other online, you just need a small number of us, really trying to make a difference to, to show that the positivity that we can spread. I've probably not explain that very good,

No, you, you, you are, you said it real good, but, but, you know, I think it's, it's so true. You were talking earlier about the importance of thinking carefully in real time. So that you're conscientious about other people, well particularly if it's a sensitive subject, I always reread my emails. Um, you know, if it's, if it's no big deal or I have a comfortable relationship, I won't, but sometimes I realize my instinct is just to say, sure, that sounds great, but for some people, maybe that's too brusque or if somebody aggravates, you about something and you feel like you're right and they're wrong it's very easy to just say, blah, blah, blah. You know, in a certain tone,

Yeah.

if I am feeling like that, I try and sleep on it. And inevitably in the morning, whatever that that's the way they took it, for whatever reason. Now you can write it in a better way,

The email that you say, you know what, I'll read it again in the morning before sending it. You never send that email.

exactly.

You gotta go. Oh, wow. I'm really glad. I'm

I know I'm like such an idiot and, you know, whenever it's a sensitive email, I always address it to myself anyway, because pressing send on something like that. my God

Just a simple question. Is there hope for humanity Shari?

Absolutely. I think there are so many people who are devoted to love. There are so many super, super brilliant people, and it's the job of people who have more, certainly who have more resources, but also who have more already invested in, worldly love, let's say, and humanity and fixing the climate and all that stuff. Our job to help other people get a better education to get more opportunities, if I live in some place where the community doesn't have very much to offer and the only restaurants are fast food, I have a TV and I'm seeing that everyone else has all of these things, and I may not know how those things were obtained, but all I know is I don't have them and I have no idea how to get them so I can appreciate why people can be easily hurt and jump to conclusions. So that's why we do two free Zoom ins a week to invite the whole world to please come and share your stories and have a great time and have the experience of being seen and heard and known for who you really are.

I like that, and I'll ask you in a moment about how people can find out more about the narrative method and, yourself, and we'll have them the details in the show notes, in terms of making the world a better place. So I, recently attended, a climate change summit in Glasgow, Scotland, and I was listening to a director from the UN and he was talking about the 17 UN sustainable development goals if you don't know what they are, look them up, not Shari, but our listeners, absolutely crucial, really, really, you know, end poverty and hunger, all the really kind of pretty, pretty bodacious goals, but they're UN goals and they're really critical to be sustainable as a planet. One of the things that was really interesting, and this is to the point of is there hope for humanity? One of the things that he said that reading thousands and thousands of reports, not him personally, but the robots reading them, and trying to correlate what actions and outcomes Was there a common path. And it was really, fascinating. He said that the goal that had the biggest impact, the goal that in turn influenced other goals, being starting to be resolved was gender equality.

Interesting.

Empowering the young girls and women, in no way saying don't worry about the oceans, don't worry about CO2, just focus on gender equality. But it was about saying that just that piece, there has such a dramatic impact. I mean, one of the things it does amongst many others is it brings, a different thought process into the boardroom. It brings, it balances out the generation of income within a family, it just changes the dynamic of the world, of the planet. Uh, and it was just really interesting. So I'm almost answering my own question about, is there hope for humanity or society? Something? I say a simple, obviously it's not as simple, otherwise there wouldn't be a problem if it was simple. But, that gender equality is just so absolutely crucial for then the rest of society.

you know what? It is simple. Every human being has value. None of us are gifted with the ability to understand the value of our own lives and what we must proceed with is realizing without 8 billion brains working on the problems of the world, we're not going to solve them as well as we will with everyone. And imagine a world where everyone was entitled to fulfilling their potential however they defined it. We wouldn't be stuck with this stuff. And so of course, empowering girls and women also teaches boys and men that their mothers and other women are powerful. But I would also talk about empowering poor people everywhere and disenfranchised people. And. I don't know exactly, what can really be done in a very direct way with people that are just full of hate, a hug is not going to do the trick. So we have to be realistic and we have to do our very best to send the materials that people need to learn how to think. And I'm not saying to learn how to think like me, but to learn how to discern.

Yeah, and, just role model, good behaviors. And, and, and that can spread.

Right. And if your mother is powerful, then it's okay to aspire to be like her. But if your mother is weak and your father, isn't there, or your, father's not that great.

Yeah.

You don't have a role model.

Yeah. I'm very lucky, and have to say this she's listening, but I'm very lucky that I've been brought up with, with excellent role models as parents and particularly my mother because of the gender component, it's not even something I realized was a thing or a problem going through school and going through jobs. And then they talk about inequality in the boardroom, like why is ther inequality in the boardroom, this doesn't make any sense. And you don't realize it because I've had that incredible privilege growing up and going well, okay, then people need to have the opportunity and do something about that.

Yeah.

So Shari, where can people find out more about you and the narrative method?

Thank you. You can go to thenarrativemethod.org and if you want to sign up for one of our free events, just go to the events page. We do Thursday nights are sharing stories. Sunday mornings are writing groups and they're really fun, they're open to everyone all over the world. And, if you want to get a deck of our cards, we created two decks of cards so that people can, create their own groups, or do them with one other person or use them as writing prompts. And the reason we created them is because you don't need a license to use your humanity.

love that.

just have to go to a therapist, you know, go to yourself. So, well, I just want to say honestly, to your listeners, I love your listeners because I love what you are doing so much, and I can only imagine how thrilled they were to find you and your perspective and this incredible empathic knowledge that you're sharing through your work. So thank you so much for what you're doing.

Thank you Shari and from a balmy 27 degrees centigrade, Los Angeles. Thank you for being on the Sondership podcast.

Thanks for having me

Yeah, you're perfect. You're a seasoned professional.

Well, you know what, first of all, I kind of felt even before I met you that this was only going to be a love fest for me. It's, it's so wonderful and I hope you can come some time. Join us.

Thank you. Yeah,

difference, but maybe the

to.